CONCERNING ON TWO KINDS OF BODY IN RESURRECTION

child of the most high,

You said:  Rev 6:9-11- When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the SOULS OF THOSE WHO HAD BEEN SLAIN because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

Now, the scene above was at the 5th seal. If God announced after the sixed seal, to have another group sealed , the 144k – Rev 7:3-8, that shows that the scripture themselves reveal that there was a number of people that could not be counted — IN HEAVEN– for the 144K WERE STILL TOGETHER AND DID NOT DIE UNTIL REV 14:1. So if the same number that were sealed in chapter 7 are same ones who were raised from the dead and appeared in Heaven at Rev 14:1, then how are the souls under the alter at the 5th seal, WHO ARE IN HEAVEN before the 144k witness ON EARTH were sealed with the Holy Spririt, considered the same group.. It appears that some one cant count.
If you read futher in chapter 7:9-11, he says there are number IN HEAVEN that cannot be counted, who are before the throne and before the lamb. JW says that they really mean on earth, but let go now to when the 144k die and come to heaven in chapter 14:1-5

Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.

And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps. And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.

WHO IS THIS GROUP SINGING THE SONG? – These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb. And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless.

As we can see, the 144k are clearly identified. Then they see a group that sounds like many waters and like a loud thunder. WHAT DO THEY DO? They sing a song that only the 144k can sing because no one in Heaven, other than the souls that were under the alter can sing a song about salvation. Only the people taken from the earth would even understand what the workds mean. AND GUESS WHAT? The group that is singing IS IN HEAVEN, just is they were in chapter 7, so now there are 2 scriptures that reveal that there is a large number in HEAVEN THAT COULD NOT BE COUNTED.

You see God was revealing these things to his bondservents about their future, not the future of earth dwellers, for they are not in the Kingdom fo God, only the remnants of Jerusalem.. SO WHAT DOES THIS MEAN IN REAL TIME — YOUR POINT NUMBER 2 ABOUT ONLY A 144K IN HEAVEN – HAS BEEN PROVEN FALSE!!!  more to come… later

MY REPLY:

Romans 10: 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God; but not according to accurate knowledge; 3 for, because of not knowing the righteousness of God but seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

1 Corinthians 2:15 However, the spiritual man examines indeed all things, but he himself is not examined by any man.

My answer: In your words you seems saying the 144K are the remnants of Israel here on earth that are still alive today and you viewed the ones in heaven as the great crowd who are not numbered and are standing before the throne of God and of the Lamb. Let us have first how resurrection will take place and who will be in heaven and on earth as what the JW believe.

Who will be on heaven? In John 3:3 – 5, Jesus mention that in order to get in heaven, one should be born again that is born of water and spirit, that is to say he must have baptism in water and is anointed with the spirit of God. Thus from these we can clearly say that only those who are baptized in water and are born of spirit or is anointed will get way to enter in the Kingdom of God in heaven. Jesus also said that he is the way, the truth and the life and that no one can come to his Father except through him – John 14:6. What does this verse suggest? First it gives proof of John 3:3 -5 where baptism in water is being practice on the time of Jesus starting through John the Baptizer. Second the promise of eternal life in heaven which was foretold by a psalmist in Psalms 68:18 was fulfilled only through Jesus when he came upon earth as man (Ephesians 4:8) and thus brought gifts of men from the earth into heaven. These people who have faith in God stated in the OLD TESTAMENT will not be made perfect apart from those who have heavenly calls [which includes Paul who belongs to that call] because they are the ones who will act as judges to mankind in the coming 1000 years or Millenial Reign of Jesus. They are the secondary part of the seed of Abraham to which the primary part is Jesus and it is through them that these people (in OT) who will live on earth during 1000 years will be made perfect as it says that they WILL NOT BE MADE PERFECT APART FROM THEM.

Who are the particular people who will be in heaven?

Romans 8:28 Now we know that God makes all his works cooperate together for the good of those who love God, those who are the ones called according to his purpose29because those whom he gave his first recognition he also foreordained to be patterned after the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 Moreover, those whom he foreordained are the ones he also called; and those whom he called are the ones he also declared to be righteous. Finally those whom he declared righteous are the ones he also glorified.

1 Peter 2:9 But YOU are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that YOU should declare abroad the excellencies” of the one that called YOU out of darkness into his wonderful light.

“It is not through the will of the one who is running but to the one who have mercy”. This verse in the Bible suggest that the gift for man of being on heaven is not on the will of the person who is running but rather on the One who chooses and have mercy on someone whom he may give heavenly life. This now calls the born of water and the born of spirit or born from God.

The first one speaks that this kind of people were called according to his purpose and the next verse identified them as a people for special possession. We may ask ‘what is this according to his purpose’. This is not only of becoming a spiritual being who will live eternally in heaven but an actual truth that these people who were called for the heavenly hope (Hebrews 3:1) will become kings and priests of God and of the Lamb just as they are described as a chosen race and a royal priesthood and the same that speaks in Revelation 14:1,4 identified as the 144K which brought from the HUMAN RACE that is from all races thus they are not literal Jews which is also in the same context or thought in Revelation 5:9, 10 which identifies as the ones who brought from among every tribe, language and nation who will become priests of God and become kings to rule on earth. Revelation 14:4 identified the 144K as the firstfruits to God and the Lamb. What does it mean? It means they are the first ones who are resurrected to be with God and with Jesus, the first product of new creation which God makes – Isaiah 65:17. That is the reason why Jesus is called the firstborn among the dead – Revelation 1:5; Colossians 1:18 and the next resurrected ones are those who have heavenly hope – Revelation 20:6. Take note in this verse that those holy ones who will be PART OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION will become KINGS OVER THE EARTH and THAT THEY WILL BECOME PRIESTS OF GOD AND OF CHRIST and become judges (Revelation 20:4) Now, why first resurrection is emphasized and that the second death has no power over them? It is because there will be another resurrection for those who have earthly hope which the second death may happen on some of them. These 144K will judge the survivor in Armageddon and the resurrected people who will have full knowledge about Jehovah and his word during 1000 years. These 144K will act as judges as what Paul stated in 1 Corinthians 6:2 and by John in Revelation 20:4. Thus, this is why they are called according to God’s purpose and that they are a people for special possession since they will dwell in heaven as spiritual beings. The word “special” means there is another thing of possession that is different with those who are for special possession and that another possession is the earth. The word “second death” marks its significance in identifying for the final judgment after 1000 years which God will do therefore there is resurrection for earthly hope in which people will have abundance knowledge about God and his creations and that after Satan and his demons were freed again after 1000 years for the final test of the people on earth (Revelation 20:2, 7 – 8), the second death (the cut off of life for eternal) will be the end of life of every people who will be against Jehovah. The second death is a term use to denote that there is no hope for a person who turned against God. His life will cease forever. I have explained through my previous comment that resurrection will take place first for those who have heavenly hope starting in the presence of Jesus as stated in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:23 which has a proof in Revelation 6:9 – 11. This people who have heavenly hope were killed mostly during the first Christian era and during and prior to the world wars in which persecution to the God’s people are terrible.

Another additional proof that those who were living before Jesus Christ came as man will have no way to enter in heaven and this is another proof of John 3:3 – 5.

John 1:12 However, as many as did receive him, to them he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name; 13 and they were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God.

John is referring to Jesus name here. For those who believe on Jesus they can become God’s children, that is to those who had known Jesus and have faith on him and become God’s people. Let us analyze the verse.”However, as many as did receive him,” To whom this words fall? Is it not from his existence in earth when he started to preach the good news of kingdom up to now? Yes, there are prophets who have spoken about Jesus before he sent was to earth. Even King David did know about him. However, are all people in the Hebrew Scriptures got a chance to know him better including his name as Jesus? Certainly no. Jesus was named by God as Jesus only because of he is going to save the Israel – Matthew 1:21. Did people get the full knowledge about Jesus to early people before? No. That is why “as many as receive him” does not include the early God’s people. What’s next? “To them he gave authority to become God’s children.” Think of the sentence please. From this point we could learn that he (Jesus) is the one who gave authority to Christians to become God’s children because they are EXERCISING FAITH IN HIS NAME. When does his name revealed? Is it not when he was born as man? Meaning subject to Jesus is the chance to be God’s children and these is subject first with the call of God to them and their submission of their heart to God. For man and even themselves did not aim to be God’s children but with the will of God just as stated in John 1:13 “and they were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God.” They were born from God, from God’s spirit, they were chosen people from all the human race. Therefore, those who are first recognized as the children of God will have no way in entering on heaven except through Jesus as he himself said also that he is the way, the truth and the life and that no one comes to Father except through him (John 14:6) that is in either in literal presence with God in heaven and in spiritual sense.

You can read the proof against Trinity in the links below.

https://fromthesunrising.wordpress.com/2010/09/28/trinitya-false-doctrine-of-a-false-church/

The links about the earth will not be destroyed is in the link below.

https://fromthesunrising.wordpress.com/2010/11/03/will-the-earth-be-destroyed/

As you can see Jesus described the Kingdom in heaven like of the Parable of the Wedding (Matthew 22:1 – 14) . God set a day for the wedding feast for his son and he invited many people for the wedding feast of his son yet only few were chosen. To whom the “few” applies? It applies to the little flock or the small group of 144K who will be part of the Heavenly Kingdom. Many people are invited to attend for the wedding feast. Who are those “many people”? These are the true Christians who obey God and have faith in Jesus name who will be part of the extension of the Kingdom of God which is on earth. Who is the one thrown outside the darkness? It refers to those who are rejecting the word of God. These people are being called to come in to the true congregation of God, yet they keep saying that they are invited to be part of that feast wedding for the son yet they are not dress up with the right dress which means they did not do the requirement to be part of God’s kingdom, they are the ones who object and deny the will of God and the truth.

The Watchtower explains the word “in front of the throne” as not to meant literally in heaven. The Greek word used here is “enopion tou thronou” which has a literal meaning of “in sight of the throne” just as God described in Psalms 11:4. The word “in front of / before” does not require literally present in front of God but rather in an acceptable situation to God. Compare the words in Luke 1:6 and Acts 10:33. You may look the word “enopion” in Acts 10:33 with its literal meaning of “in sight” in this interlinear (http://interlinearbible.org/acts/10.htm). In addition to this, the two kinds of body that will be resurrected are identified in 1 Corinthians 15:35- 53. Take note verse 35, someone had asked how would the dead be resurrected? In what kind of body will they have? Verse 38 give answers in which God gives type of body according to his will. Verse 40 speaks the two types of body in resurrection that is the heavenly body and the earthly body. This verse is the MAIN ANSWER to verse 35 on what kind of body they will have in resurrection. It generally speaks of the resurrection of the dead people, isn’t it? Further proof of this that support of the resurrection for the heavenly hope is in Romans 8:17 in which it states a word “but” which gives significant different from those who have earthly hope. In this verse they are heirs of possession BUT of special possession just as what mention in 1 Peter 2:9. Other translations such as NIV, NASB and ASV have the word ”God” though it is not in the original Greek texts. Therefore Romans 8:17 suggest to those who have heirs BUT heirs in heaven. If the hope is only in heaven then there is no need to use “but” or ANOTHER SPECIFICATION of the word “heirs with Christ” but this word definitely differentiate the hope in heaven which is being compared with the hope on earth. Unfortunately, other translations did not see the importance to put the right word like the NWT does. Notice the words used, ”heirs of God” but the next phrase says ”heirs with Christ”. This gives different emphasis since in Psalms 37;9, 11, 29 the hope for the many people is to live on earth. Therefore, when the children of God is called heirs of God it is emphasized to be heirs with Christ [that is in heaven] since the people who will possess the earth are also heirs of God.

17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. – KJV

17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. – NASB

The above translation though has not the word “but” indicates still that there is another group of people with heirs. If there is only one kind of heirs then the writing would not write the word “heirs” and emphasize “heirs of God” and “fellow heirs of Christ”. This speaks something special for those who have heirs with Christ since there is also another heirs which is on earth. Writing the word “then heirs” and repeated again as “heirs of God” and “joint-heirs of Christ” denotes that they are special people for God. If there is only one kind of body in resurrection and salvation then the writing should be written as only “heirs of God and of Christ”.

BELOW IS THE HEBREW INTERLINEAR OF 1 PETER 2:9.

http://www.interlinearbible.org/1_peter/2.htm

Below is the original meaning of the Greek word “peripoiesis” in 1 Peter 2:9

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/4047.htm

(peripoíēsis) originally meant, ” ‘a making to remain over and above‘. Thus this kind of people is above from among others that is why they are called priests of God and of Christ and they are kings over the earth. Therefore, they are special ones. Thus, the NWT is best translated the way it should mean unlike with other translations.

Below is a copy-paste for additional explanation which about the same topic above.

The commentator said: “If you understood the above point that God made through Paul, you would understand that no religion (which is just a form of worship) is physically GOD nor does a man made church represent God and any organization that presents itself as such is displaying idolatry and adultery. For just is the Kingdom is spiritual, so the Body of Christ is spiritual and they are spiritual discerned. If you don’t have Christ in you, you are not in Gods Kingdom, to teach contrary to this is calling Jesus a lie. The spiritual scriptures are for those that are spiritual, not for babes or for the dogs who pick out scriptures to use to bring their point across for this is what Satan did in the garden and to Jesus in wilderness. So to add a logically unsound carnal reason to God’s spiritual word is blasphemy and adultery.”

My answer: In your words you are implicitly saying that church is not important in identifying the true religion. It is true that true worshippers worship God in spirit and in truth and that true worshipers should worship God in spirit and truth – John 4:23 – 24. If true worship cannot be identified through a true religion then how come God can call his own nation as his true worshipers separate from the false religions? Actually, the church or congregation is important in identifying the true religion because Jesus is the foundation of the rock in which he taught the true teachings of the word of God – Matthew 21:42; Ephesians 2:20. It is through the foundation of the church which is the body of Christ (Ephesians 1:23; Colossians 1:18) the true teachings was set on. The question is how can the true worshipers of God be identified if they do not identify themselves as the true religion? Remember, Paul talked about different sects before which means different groups against the true group. Even Paul himself belongs to a sect before called Judaism – Acts 25:26; Galatians 1:13. In Galatians 1:13 Paul himself admitted that he persecuted the church or congregation of God. Thus, a true religion is identified through a true congregation of God. I believe that Jehovah’s Witnesses is the true congregation of God and that they are the only true religion.

The next lengthy paragraphs of yours are your personal opinion or experience. I cannot conclude if your statement is really from yours or it was only a craft from someone’s personal belief or experience. That is why I need to know your religion because it seems your identity crosses to at least three different religions.

The commentator said: “Your mistaken, the bible does not say that there is an earthly resurrection. The people who are raised on the earth after the 1000 year reign are raised at the white throne of Christ for Judgment and after they have been judged righteous, they are resurrected (Rev 20:11-14) to the earth. Note the scripture, they are raised AFTER the thousand year reign and just before Satan and death, at Armageddon. The Born Again Christians get the prize of being raised before Armageddon, the remainder of the world is raised for judgement at Armageddon after Satan and death are swallowed and throne in the Lake of Fire and the unbeleivers and the dogs go with them. Those in the first resurrection do not have to have their deeds named because they are covered with the blood. These are the ones who accepted Christ as their redeemer. They go to the Heavenly Jerusalem. The second resurrections is for those that did not accept Christ as God and their savior. Since they did not accept him and let the blood cover them, the book is opened and they are judged by their deeds. Those that are born again are sealed, so that they are saved from death, the non born again people from the beginning of time, will be judged.”

My answer: There is no resurrection after 1000 years. Revelation 20:6 speaks of resurrection for heavenly life who will be priests of God and Jesus and  be kings in heaven and will rule on earth for 1000 years (Revelation 5:9 – 10). To whom will they rule and why they will rule on earth? This gives an answer now as to the reason why resurrection will takes place after Armageddon. 1 Corinthians 6:2 and Revelation 20:4 states that this heavenly rulers (the 144K) will judge the people on earth and that is why they are going to rule on earth for the fulfillment of Isaiah 65:20 during 1000 years.  You said Satan and his demons will be killed after Armageddon and so the judgment to all people will take place and the righteous will be resurrected to live on earth. It is not possible since Revelation 20:2, 7 tells that after Armageddon, Satan and his demons will be put into prison for 1000 years first and after 1000 years he will be freed and deceived nations in the four corners of the world so therefore it means all nations will come for a final test. It cannot be first resurrection of righteous people on earth then after Satan and his demons destroyed after 1000 years another resurrection for the wicked takes place. It is not possible because it was said in Acts 24:15 that there will be a resurrection of both righteous and unrighteous. During 1000 years resurrected people will have to prove until the final test that they are deserving of eternal life (See Isaiah 65:20 and the preceding and following verses of it which will happen during 1000 years). The proof that first resurrection (heavenly life) takes place in the time of presence (parousia) of Jesus as what stated in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:23 and not after Armageddon is also in Revelation 6:9 – 11.In this verse, the resurrected people (some of 144K) are in heaven already and are waiting for the time of God to take actions against the wicked people on earth which is on Armageddon. We see that there are people resurrected already before Armageddon comes and that is the time of presence of Jesus which starts after he became as appointed king by God in heaven in 1914 – Daniel 2:44. Now, what about Revelation 20:12 – 15, should we say that this will happen after the second resurrection of both righteous and unrighteous and so there is a resurrection of the wicked ones after 1000 years or the resurrection takes place after 1000 years? No. Remember the words of Jesus when he said to fear the One who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (Matthew 10:28). Plus the fact that there is a resurrection after Armageddon. Read Revelation 20:5. TAKE NOTE: THE OTHER PEOPLE WERE NOT RESURRECTED. THE JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES BELIEVE AS I ALSO BELIEVE THAT THESE ARE THE RESURRECTED PEOPLE WHO DID NOT COME TO REAL LIFE AFTER 1000 YEARS. THEY ARE THE ONES MISLED BY SATAN AFTER 1000 YEARS AND DISOBEYED GOD’S WILL. If someone may not believe on this, still the text shows that there are other people who did not resurrect until 1000 years. The same thought can be seen in Daniel 12:2 which states, ”And there will be many of those asleep in the ground of dust who will wake up, these to indefinitely lasting life and those to reproaches [and] to indefinitely lasting abhorrence.” However, the Jehovah’s Witnesses explained that this is in spiritual sense. If someone will take this literally, then therefore NOT ALL will be resurrected since the word used is only ”many”. The same thought applies to Revelation 20:5 which said that the other dead are not resurrected until 1000 years is over meaning in spiritual sense they did not able to come to real life after 1000 years. They were not able to surpass with the final test done by Satan and his demons.

Thus, the wicked ones are not in Hades but in Gehenna who will not have resurrection. The ones in Hades are the ones who will have chance to resurrect just as what stated in verse 13. If someone will say that these (verse13) are wicked and is believing the second resurrection (after Armageddon) applies to both righteous and unrighteous (the ones who did not come to know the truth), then it would violate the words in verse 13 that the dead were gave up by hades and sea meaning there are righteous persons in hades who will be resurrected. The words “those dead” does includes both “righteous and unrighteous” so it is impossible to say that wicked will be resurrected after 1000 years but instead there will be resurrection of both “righteous and unrighteous (the ones who have not come to know the truth)” after Armageddon and not the resurrection of the wicked anymore. Therefore, Hades and sea will gave up its dead people after Armageddon happens and that during 1000 years people will have full knowledge about Jehovah (Isaiah 11:9) and completely know the righteousness of Jehovah and that after 1000 years, Satan and his demons will attack God’s nation for a final test. Finally, the salvation once more will be acquired by the righteous people on earth when God will destroy all people who will disobey his will including Satan and his demons and that means the second death.

I hope it helps clear the things you mention.

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